and joe biden as noted in the introduction, has been in the senate for three decades. he has a unique ability to work with mitch mcconnell, his longtime colleague to try to close this deal. that doesn't mean they can do it, but it's a sign that things are getting close to the end zone if those two were talking all night. the report i got early this morning at 6:00 a.m. is that their talks had been good, constructive and continued very late into the night. >> thank you, john, for that. john harwood in washington. lawmakers, as john say, continue talks this morning as we inch closer to the cliff itself. what role is the no-tax pledge playing in the negotiations. founder of americans for tax reform joins us this morning not too far from where john is sitting. grover, good morning. >> good morning. good to be with you. >> you've been quoted as saying that rates will not increase. that kind of flies in the face with what john just told us. what's true? >> well, two things. earlier, my point was that as long as these negotiations were conducted with c-span cameras there, and